Comments on: Troubled sleep http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/ My life as a father, Buddhist and Japanophile. Fri, 10 Jun 2011 15:44:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Marcus http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/#comment-169 Marcus Wed, 19 Mar 2008 05:28:20 +0000 http://level8.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-169 Thank you Gerald! My response to this discussion on my blog: http://marcusjournal.blogspot.com/2008/03/wednesday-update-and-prayer-for-joseph.html :) Thank you Gerald!

My response to this discussion on my blog:

http://marcusjournal.blogspot.com/2008/03/wednesday-update-and-prayer-for-joseph.html
:)

]]> By: Gerald Ford http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/#comment-165 Gerald Ford Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:44:42 +0000 http://level8.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-165 I felt this way too, until someone reminded me that no one goes to religion as a perfect person. It's inherently flawed because the people who come to religion are flawed, hoping to become something better. Thankfully, some do respond to this higher call, and that's what keeps things going in the right direction. Marcus: always glad to have you on the blog. :) I felt this way too, until someone reminded me that no one goes to religion as a perfect person. It’s inherently flawed because the people who come to religion are flawed, hoping to become something better. Thankfully, some do respond to this higher call, and that’s what keeps things going in the right direction.

Marcus: always glad to have you on the blog. :)

]]> By: Marcus http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/#comment-164 Marcus Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:33:25 +0000 http://level8.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-164 Fabulous discussion! Thank you Gerald and Erg! I don't know enough about JDSS to really comment, but I do think petitionary prayer is a natural response of people when in trouble or distress. And while I can see why it might be invalid theologically, I guess it'll always be there - and I have no trouble with it at all. I even believe it to be helpful in many ways. Anyway, enough from me - all I really wanted to say was Thank You! Metta, Marcus Fabulous discussion! Thank you Gerald and Erg!

I don’t know enough about JDSS to really comment, but I do think petitionary prayer is a natural response of people when in trouble or distress. And while I can see why it might be invalid theologically, I guess it’ll always be there – and I have no trouble with it at all. I even believe it to be helpful in many ways.

Anyway, enough from me – all I really wanted to say was Thank You!

Metta,

Marcus

]]> By: Erg http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/#comment-166 Erg Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:00:27 +0000 http://level8.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-166 I just wonder, myself, how much pure Buddhism or pure religion really exists. I don't mean to hijack your blog, but with permission I'd like to muse on that for a moment. Most Catholic Churches, here in the US at least, are more schools than religious institutions. Well, they also hold alot of real estate too. Mosques serve as cultural community centers, like most Hindu or buddhist temples. Many Protestant Churches are simply men and women's clubs with religious overtones, and don't get me started on megachurches. In their own country's Thai, Tibetan, Chinese buddhism is just as compromised as far as I can tell. Islam apologize for the state. Christianity is basically dead in its homeland. And I am not sure it was better in the past. Institutionalized religion is institutionalized. Its hard to get around. In a sense, every religion is a "funeral business". But its much more too. For myself, I try to keep my expectations low and hope for the best. I faith in ideas and my values, in my family and friends, not the company I work for or the government I live under. Why should my Church be in column a not column b. On the other hand it may be that people like me are the reason things are the way they are. Sorry for using up your blog space President Ford. ;) I just wonder, myself, how much pure Buddhism or pure religion really exists. I don’t mean to hijack your blog, but with permission I’d like to muse on that for a moment. Most Catholic Churches, here in the US at least, are more schools than religious institutions. Well, they also hold alot of real estate too. Mosques serve as cultural community centers, like most Hindu or buddhist temples. Many Protestant Churches are simply men and women’s clubs with religious overtones, and don’t get me started on megachurches. In their own country’s Thai, Tibetan, Chinese buddhism is just as compromised as far as I can tell. Islam apologize for the state. Christianity is basically dead in its homeland. And I am not sure it was better in the past. Institutionalized religion is institutionalized. Its hard to get around. In a sense, every religion is a “funeral business”. But its much more too.
For myself, I try to keep my expectations low and hope for the best. I faith in ideas and my values, in my family and friends, not the company I work for or the government I live under. Why should my Church be in column a not column b.
On the other hand it may be that people like me are the reason things are the way they are. Sorry for using up your blog space President Ford. ;)

]]> By: Gerald Ford http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/#comment-167 Gerald Ford Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:33:18 +0000 http://level8.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-167 <em>Because alot of people are buying.</em> Ha ha ha, this is certainly true. I hate to say it, but one thing that does annoy me is how Jodo Shinshu, like many Buddhist sects in Japan, does run like a business. Joseph, Marcus's friend, pointed this out recently, and I have to admit he's right. It's disgraceful, but what amazes me is how many people (Japanese and Westerners) buy into it. Of course, in Thailand, people go absolutely nuts over amulets, so it's not just a Japanese thing either; that's just what I happen to have noticed more acutely in Japanese Buddhism lately. It's one of the reasons why I have such doubts toward JDSS, and Japanese Buddhism in general: the 'funeral business' argument. The American JDSS temples also run like funeral businesses. Because alot of people are buying.

Ha ha ha, this is certainly true. I hate to say it, but one thing that does annoy me is how Jodo Shinshu, like many Buddhist sects in Japan, does run like a business. Joseph, Marcus’s friend, pointed this out recently, and I have to admit he’s right. It’s disgraceful, but what amazes me is how many people (Japanese and Westerners) buy into it.

Of course, in Thailand, people go absolutely nuts over amulets, so it’s not just a Japanese thing either; that’s just what I happen to have noticed more acutely in Japanese Buddhism lately. It’s one of the reasons why I have such doubts toward JDSS, and Japanese Buddhism in general: the ‘funeral business’ argument. The American JDSS temples also run like funeral businesses.

]]> By: Erg http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/#comment-168 Erg Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:21:53 +0000 http://level8.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-168 I think part of the reason Shinran wasn't real big on petitionary prayer was partly "theological", you can't add or take away anything from Amida, his compassion is so boundless he is already doing what can be done, the laws of karma are immutable etc. etc. etc. but also, the rituals alot of sects used, like lifting the buddha or blessing x/ritual y all had fees attached to them, and sometimes complex and horrible punishments for not performing them. And people take that stuff seriously. My wife is a medical student and much much smarter than me, but she also does not break mirrors, open umbrellas inside, knocks on wood, worries about jinxes, won't take the lord's name in vein even in anger even though she is not a christian.... all sorts of little superstitions. It is my understanding one of our presidential candidates, McCain, is the same way. So by make petitionary prayer "un-Shin" it alos makes it harder for Shin ministers to bilk the public by charging them for good luck. Because alot of people are buying. Or so is my opinion I think part of the reason Shinran wasn’t real big on petitionary prayer was partly “theological”, you can’t add or take away anything from Amida, his compassion is so boundless he is already doing what can be done, the laws of karma are immutable etc. etc. etc. but also, the rituals alot of sects used, like lifting the buddha or blessing x/ritual y all had fees attached to them, and sometimes complex and horrible punishments for not performing them. And people take that stuff seriously. My wife is a medical student and much much smarter than me, but she also does not break mirrors, open umbrellas inside, knocks on wood, worries about jinxes, won’t take the lord’s name in vein even in anger even though she is not a christian…. all sorts of little superstitions. It is my understanding one of our presidential candidates, McCain, is the same way. So by make petitionary prayer “un-Shin” it alos makes it harder for Shin ministers to bilk the public by charging them for good luck. Because alot of people are buying.

Or so is my opinion

]]> By: Marcus http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/#comment-163 Marcus Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:04:51 +0000 http://level8.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-163 Hi Gerald, You say: "It’s best to thoroughly understand a teaching, inside and out, before you criticize it" and I agree with you. I certainly don't think I've criticised any teachings here! If you read books about Buddhism in Thailand for example (I lived in Thailand for years and was married to a Thai for seven years) you'll read that Thais don't practice petitionary prayer too. But just go to any temple. Talk to Thai people. They ask Buddha for help in the lottery or for the numbers to the lottery to come to them in a dream. And outside the temple there are lines of lottery ticket sellers. In the Bangkok City Shrine there is a Buddha that you lift. First you make a prayer, if you can then lift the Buddha, it'll be granted. If not, it won't. I could go on and on. And yet all the books say that there is no petitionary prayer! The Buddhist books ignore or belittle the actual activity of real Buddhists. The same is true also in Korea where I live now, and - as you know - the same is true in Japan. So, really, if you don't petition Buddha then that's fine. I'm not criticising anyone who doesn't. But at the same time I'm aware that despite all the books and official websites, most Buddhists - the old ladies who fill the temples with their bowing and chanting - do actually regularly ask the Buddhas for specific things. Wishing you peace and happiness, Marcus Hi Gerald,

You say: “It’s best to thoroughly understand a teaching, inside and out, before you criticize it” and I agree with you. I certainly don’t think I’ve criticised any teachings here!

If you read books about Buddhism in Thailand for example (I lived in Thailand for years and was married to a Thai for seven years) you’ll read that Thais don’t practice petitionary prayer too. But just go to any temple. Talk to Thai people. They ask Buddha for help in the lottery or for the numbers to the lottery to come to them in a dream. And outside the temple there are lines of lottery ticket sellers.

In the Bangkok City Shrine there is a Buddha that you lift. First you make a prayer, if you can then lift the Buddha, it’ll be granted. If not, it won’t. I could go on and on. And yet all the books say that there is no petitionary prayer! The Buddhist books ignore or belittle the actual activity of real Buddhists.

The same is true also in Korea where I live now, and – as you know – the same is true in Japan.

So, really, if you don’t petition Buddha then that’s fine. I’m not criticising anyone who doesn’t. But at the same time I’m aware that despite all the books and official websites, most Buddhists – the old ladies who fill the temples with their bowing and chanting – do actually regularly ask the Buddhas for specific things.

Wishing you peace and happiness,

Marcus

]]> By: Gerald Ford http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/#comment-156 Gerald Ford Tue, 18 Mar 2008 00:38:31 +0000 http://level8.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-156 Marcus, Jon: regarding petitionary prayer and such, I would suggest looking at the English websites for temples such as Tsukiji Hongwanji or Nishi Hongwanji, which do state that there is no petitionary prayer; karma is karma. Also I happen to pick up the English copy of the Jodo Shinshu handbook (printed in Japan, translated into English), which states the same. My wife is also Japanese, and follows JDSS, but generally does not pray for things. When she is scared or upset, she does pray to Amida, but in the sense of taking refuge, not to gain anything. The difference is subtle, but it's there. Praying because you want to make things better won't work, but praying to Amida as a means of reliance (<em>omakase</em> in Japanese) is perfectly normal in JDSS. It's why we take refuge in Amida in the first place: we feel powerless. Now, understand I don't necessarily agree nor disagree with orthodox Jodo Shinshu teachings, I am simply conveying them as has been taught to me by both Western and Japanese sources. It's best to thoroughly understand a teaching, inside and out, before you criticize it. Marcus, Jon: regarding petitionary prayer and such, I would suggest looking at the English websites for temples such as Tsukiji Hongwanji or Nishi Hongwanji, which do state that there is no petitionary prayer; karma is karma. Also I happen to pick up the English copy of the Jodo Shinshu handbook (printed in Japan, translated into English), which states the same.

My wife is also Japanese, and follows JDSS, but generally does not pray for things. When she is scared or upset, she does pray to Amida, but in the sense of taking refuge, not to gain anything. The difference is subtle, but it’s there. Praying because you want to make things better won’t work, but praying to Amida as a means of reliance (omakase in Japanese) is perfectly normal in JDSS. It’s why we take refuge in Amida in the first place: we feel powerless.

Now, understand I don’t necessarily agree nor disagree with orthodox Jodo Shinshu teachings, I am simply conveying them as has been taught to me by both Western and Japanese sources. It’s best to thoroughly understand a teaching, inside and out, before you criticize it.

]]> By: Marcus http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/#comment-159 Marcus Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:42:11 +0000 http://level8.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-159 Hi Jon, Can I add something to what Gerald has already said? In every single Buddhist country you visit you will find people praying to Buddha to help with specific problems and griefs in exactly the same way as Christians pray to God. In fact, one of the most popular times to visit the temple in East Asia is just before exam season when temples are packed with mothers and grandmothers praying and making offerings for their children's success and good grades. Although we live in Korea right now, my Japanese girlfriend (who comes from the JDSS tradition through all four grandparents) tells me this happens in JDSS temples as much as any other. I certainly know it also happens in Thailand where I spent many years. So, yes, pray away. It seems to me that it's only the western Buddhists who - for some reason I don't understand - want to deny this part of the religion. As for babies - there is no concept of original sin in Buddhism. There is Karmic debt of course, but then the child may have burnt that out just by being born. We don't know and can't say. I'd assume a baby would go straight to the Pure Land. It's also possible, of course, to transfer merit to someone else - I guess you could also say the nembutsu on behalf of someone else but that's just a guess and I suspect I'm wrong! Anyway, I hope some of this helps. With metta, Marcus Hi Jon,

Can I add something to what Gerald has already said?

In every single Buddhist country you visit you will find people praying to Buddha to help with specific problems and griefs in exactly the same way as Christians pray to God.

In fact, one of the most popular times to visit the temple in East Asia is just before exam season when temples are packed with mothers and grandmothers praying and making offerings for their children’s success and good grades.

Although we live in Korea right now, my Japanese girlfriend (who comes from the JDSS tradition through all four grandparents) tells me this happens in JDSS temples as much as any other. I certainly know it also happens in Thailand where I spent many years.

So, yes, pray away. It seems to me that it’s only the western Buddhists who – for some reason I don’t understand – want to deny this part of the religion.

As for babies – there is no concept of original sin in Buddhism. There is Karmic debt of course, but then the child may have burnt that out just by being born. We don’t know and can’t say. I’d assume a baby would go straight to the Pure Land.

It’s also possible, of course, to transfer merit to someone else – I guess you could also say the nembutsu on behalf of someone else but that’s just a guess and I suspect I’m wrong!

Anyway, I hope some of this helps.

With metta,

Marcus

]]> By: Gerald Ford http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2008/03/17/troubled-sleep/#comment-161 Gerald Ford Mon, 17 Mar 2008 23:13:25 +0000 http://level8.wordpress.com/?p=112#comment-161 P.S. One of the best books on Pure Land Buddhism is "Raft from the Other Shore" by Sho-on Hattori. It's a fairly comprehensive, scholarly (but not too scholarly) overview of Honen's views on Pure Land Buddhism, which by extension is shared by Shinran as well. P.S. One of the best books on Pure Land Buddhism is “Raft from the Other Shore” by Sho-on Hattori. It’s a fairly comprehensive, scholarly (but not too scholarly) overview of Honen’s views on Pure Land Buddhism, which by extension is shared by Shinran as well.

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