Comments on: A Refutation of Exclusive-Nembutsu Pure Land Buddhism http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/ My life as a father, Buddhist and Japanophile. Fri, 10 Jun 2011 15:44:16 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Doug M http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/#comment-4733 Doug M Wed, 27 Oct 2010 06:21:40 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=7944#comment-4733 Hello Tan, and welcome to the JLR. As someone who converted <em>away</em> from Jodoshinshu Buddhism, I can say that I used to believe everything you said above, because I heard it all too. However, I encourage you to read Professor Ford's book, and study Jokei's refutation of the "exclusive-Nembutsu" practice. Ford's argument is right: many of the explanations have remained unchallenged in Japanese religious history for too long, and get passed on to lay followers who don't know better. For many people, Buddhism is a way to pray for good things in life, but that is a problem of the individual or popular-culture, not the religion. People pray for selfish things in <em>every</em> religion. It doesn't justify Jodoshinshu's uniqueness compared to other sects, and its exclusiveness, like the exclusiveness sometimes found in Zen, is in my opinion more of a hindrance than help. If you don't believe me, study the Buddha's own teachings, for example the last half of the Immeasurable Life Sutra (a Pure Land text), the Pali Canon, etc, and see that he advocated a well-rounded approach to the Buddhist path, not an exclusive one. Likewise, with the notion of Dharma-decline, this is more of a cultural phenomenon than a doctrinal one. Medieval Buddhists in Japan had calculated the birth of the Buddha too far back and assumed they were already living in the days of Dharma Decline, but this is very <em>subjective</em>. If you look at noble teachers today, the Dharma has declined no less than it did 800 years ago. Also, regarding such things as superstition in Asian religion, Professor Yao has good thoughts with regard to what comprises religion in Chinese, as I quoted in this <a href="http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/10/03/theres-religion-and-then-theres-religion/" rel="nofollow">later post</a>. Again, I already left the Jodoshinshu sect months ago and have no desire to return, nor endorse it in this blog either. Hello Tan, and welcome to the JLR.

As someone who converted away from Jodoshinshu Buddhism, I can say that I used to believe everything you said above, because I heard it all too. However, I encourage you to read Professor Ford’s book, and study Jokei’s refutation of the “exclusive-Nembutsu” practice. Ford’s argument is right: many of the explanations have remained unchallenged in Japanese religious history for too long, and get passed on to lay followers who don’t know better.

For many people, Buddhism is a way to pray for good things in life, but that is a problem of the individual or popular-culture, not the religion. People pray for selfish things in every religion. It doesn’t justify Jodoshinshu’s uniqueness compared to other sects, and its exclusiveness, like the exclusiveness sometimes found in Zen, is in my opinion more of a hindrance than help. If you don’t believe me, study the Buddha’s own teachings, for example the last half of the Immeasurable Life Sutra (a Pure Land text), the Pali Canon, etc, and see that he advocated a well-rounded approach to the Buddhist path, not an exclusive one.

Likewise, with the notion of Dharma-decline, this is more of a cultural phenomenon than a doctrinal one. Medieval Buddhists in Japan had calculated the birth of the Buddha too far back and assumed they were already living in the days of Dharma Decline, but this is very subjective. If you look at noble teachers today, the Dharma has declined no less than it did 800 years ago.

Also, regarding such things as superstition in Asian religion, Professor Yao has good thoughts with regard to what comprises religion in Chinese, as I quoted in this later post.

Again, I already left the Jodoshinshu sect months ago and have no desire to return, nor endorse it in this blog either.

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By: Tan http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/#comment-4732 Tan Wed, 27 Oct 2010 05:13:20 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=7944#comment-4732 Dear all, I can understand the feelings expressed by Dough over the exclusiveness of jodoshinshu and jodoshu teachings. Yes, some new to japanese pureland schools can find certain aspects dogmatic and inflexible. As a Jodoshinshu buddhist from a Chinese and tibetan buddhist background, what I can say are as follows 1) The exclusiveness of jodoshinshu and honen stems mainly out of a desire to teach something simple and yet most effective for the masses who were illiterate, poor and unable to devote time for traditional practices. Furthermore, many were engaged in occupations that were seen as non-buddhist (fishing, farming, hunting, professional soliders etc). This meant that such people were excluded from traditional practices. 2) The idea that certain practices are superior over others is common in traditional buddhist teachings of many schools. For example, Kukai uses doctrinal text to propose that the shingon teachings are superior over other schools. The same goes for tendai, kegon and other schools. The idea of the Dharma ending age rendering certain practices less effective or not relevant is also common in many buddhist schools as well. In this sense, Shinran and Honen are not writing works that are totally radical in those days. 3) The elitist aspect of older schools is a common trait even up to meiji era. Most of the scholar monks were from distinguished backgrounds. This was the general trend even in other buddhist countries such as Tibet. 4) The reason why shinshu revers Amida exclusively is because sentient beings tend to be unfocused and the folk religions often revere the many bodhisattvas with a motive for worldly benefits (good harvest, timely rain etc). While there is nothing inherently wrong with prayers for worldly benefits, from the buddhist perspective, it deters people from understanding buddhist doctrines and sometimes encourages folk and superstitious practices. Before I converted to shinshu, I used to petition the various buddhas, bodhisattvas for all kinds of needs. Eg, Medicine buddha for healing from sickness etc. It was not satisfying as one's faith became based on not whether we revere the buddha for his wisdom but rather for his ability to give benefits. There are also more and more chinese pureland temples who also decided to stick exclusively to Amitabha practice and remove many unrelated liturgy and practices. Amida shares a common dharmakaya body with all other buddhas. Thus revering him alone is in no way neglecting any other buddhas or bodhisattvas. This can be attested by the Amida sutra whereby the buddhas of 6 directions praise shakyamuni and Amida buddha. 5) At the end of the day, it is up to individual to decide if Jodoshinshu teachings suit him/her. (refer to tannisho) However, after trying out many different doctrines, I think I still enjoy the simplicity of Jodoshinshu. I hope this helps Dear all,

I can understand the feelings expressed by Dough over the exclusiveness of jodoshinshu and jodoshu teachings.

Yes, some new to japanese pureland schools can find certain aspects dogmatic and inflexible.

As a Jodoshinshu buddhist from a Chinese and tibetan buddhist background, what I can say are as follows

1) The exclusiveness of jodoshinshu and honen stems mainly out of a desire to teach something simple and yet most effective for the masses who were illiterate, poor and unable to devote time for traditional practices. Furthermore, many were engaged in occupations that were seen as non-buddhist (fishing, farming, hunting, professional soliders etc). This meant that such people were excluded from traditional practices.

2) The idea that certain practices are superior over others is common in traditional buddhist teachings of many schools. For example, Kukai uses doctrinal text to propose that the shingon teachings are superior over other schools. The same goes for tendai, kegon and other schools.
The idea of the Dharma ending age rendering certain practices less effective or not relevant is also common in many buddhist schools as well.
In this sense, Shinran and Honen are not writing works that are totally radical in those days.

3) The elitist aspect of older schools is a common trait even up to meiji era. Most of the scholar monks were from distinguished backgrounds. This was the general trend even in other buddhist countries such as Tibet.

4) The reason why shinshu revers Amida exclusively is because sentient beings tend to be unfocused and the folk religions often revere the many bodhisattvas with a motive for worldly benefits (good harvest, timely rain etc). While there is nothing inherently wrong with prayers for worldly benefits, from the buddhist perspective, it deters people from understanding buddhist doctrines and sometimes encourages folk and superstitious practices.

Before I converted to shinshu, I used to petition the various buddhas, bodhisattvas for all kinds of needs. Eg, Medicine buddha for healing from sickness etc. It was not satisfying as one’s faith became based on not whether we revere the buddha for his wisdom but rather for his ability to give benefits. There are also more and more chinese pureland temples who also decided to stick exclusively to Amitabha practice and remove many unrelated liturgy and practices.

Amida shares a common dharmakaya body with all other buddhas. Thus revering him alone is in no way neglecting any other buddhas or bodhisattvas. This can be attested by the Amida sutra whereby the buddhas of 6 directions praise shakyamuni and Amida buddha.

5) At the end of the day, it is up to individual to decide if Jodoshinshu teachings suit him/her. (refer to tannisho) However, after trying out many different doctrines, I think I still enjoy the simplicity of Jodoshinshu.

I hope this helps

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By: antiphonsgarden http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/#comment-4319 antiphonsgarden Sun, 11 Jul 2010 06:43:31 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=7944#comment-4319 Thank you Doug for your welcome, Each too well greased machine needs a gritty sand corn, I feel myself in the "non tradition" of the old Tao freaks or guys like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikky%C5%AB What a sleepy, sleepy world! Thank you Doug for your welcome,

Each too well greased machine needs a gritty sand corn,
I feel myself in the “non tradition” of the old Tao freaks or guys like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikky%C5%AB

What a sleepy, sleepy world!

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By: Doug http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/#comment-4314 Doug Sat, 10 Jul 2010 21:06:44 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=7944#comment-4314 Hello Antiphon and welcome to the JLR! Hello Antiphon and welcome to the JLR!

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By: antiphonsgarden http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/#comment-4302 antiphonsgarden Thu, 08 Jul 2010 13:14:13 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=7944#comment-4302 My expirience with enlightement points definitly away from each gobetween dogmatism pretending wordfully to "better the animal". The most buddhist I have meet, are so addicted to the right country club membership trip himself, that they insit into knowing that one "had not the right inside"who shares his own authentic being .The retroflecting omnipotence participation bonus shows in quiet pompous finger pointing behaviours, like in other bigot/doctrine tribes. Obviously, buddhism is one more procrastination tool/moralin carrot infront of the donkey nose, instead of real selfawareness/here&now selfaccptance. And, yes, enlightement is natural, even to a non buddhist neighbour. Live with it, maybe buddhism is the distraction from the real thing. My expirience with enlightement points definitly away from each gobetween dogmatism pretending wordfully to “better the animal”.
The most buddhist I have meet, are so addicted to the right country club membership trip himself, that they insit into knowing that one “had not the right inside”who shares his own authentic being .The retroflecting omnipotence participation bonus shows in quiet pompous finger pointing behaviours, like in other bigot/doctrine tribes. Obviously, buddhism is one more procrastination tool/moralin carrot infront of the donkey nose, instead of real selfawareness/here&now selfaccptance. And, yes, enlightement is natural, even to a non buddhist neighbour.
Live with it, maybe buddhism is the distraction from the real thing.

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By: Doug http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/#comment-4181 Doug Tue, 08 Jun 2010 16:36:17 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=7944#comment-4181 Hi Marcus, glad you liked it. The diversity of Buddhism I think is its strength, not its sectarianism. I am all for specialization, but when it becomes exclusivism, I have a problem with it. :-/ Hi Marcus, glad you liked it. The diversity of Buddhism I think is its strength, not its sectarianism. I am all for specialization, but when it becomes exclusivism, I have a problem with it. :-/

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By: Marcus http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/#comment-4177 Marcus Mon, 07 Jun 2010 08:19:27 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=7944#comment-4177 Hi Doug, "Just follow which aspect you tend to have a karmic connection toward, whether it be Amitabha Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha, Kannon, zazen, tantra, or some combination." Yes, yes, and yes! As you know, I live in Thailand, attend a Korean Seon temple, have a devotional practice to the Bodhisattva of Compassion, see the precepts as being of vast importance, and love Pure Land Buddhism too (my partner is Jodo-shinshu) - to choose an exclusive practice would, for me, be to deny vaste swathes of my experience and karmic connections. Thank you so much for a wonderful and fascinating post, All beings, one Buddha-nature, Praise to Amida Buddha, Praise to the Bodhisattva of Compassion! Marcus Hi Doug,

“Just follow which aspect you tend to have a karmic connection toward, whether it be Amitabha Buddha, Shakyamuni Buddha, Kannon, zazen, tantra, or some combination.”

Yes, yes, and yes! As you know, I live in Thailand, attend a Korean Seon temple, have a devotional practice to the Bodhisattva of Compassion, see the precepts as being of vast importance, and love Pure Land Buddhism too (my partner is Jodo-shinshu) – to choose an exclusive practice would, for me, be to deny vaste swathes of my experience and karmic connections.

Thank you so much for a wonderful and fascinating post,

All beings, one Buddha-nature,
Praise to Amida Buddha,
Praise to the Bodhisattva of Compassion!

Marcus

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By: Doug http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/#comment-4167 Doug Fri, 04 Jun 2010 16:31:22 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=7944#comment-4167 Hi Mark and Nathan, Apologies on the late reply: <strong>Mark:</strong> I think the issue for me is not one of difficulty, but flexibility and inclusiveness. My experiences have been rather confining in Pure Land so far, as well as with Western Zen, so yes confining is an apt term. <strong>Nathan</strong> Welcome to the JLR. Yes, people do like to play up their own founders as a matter of legitimacy, and due to historiography, we've often neglected "classic" Japanese Buddhism in favor of the newer sects simply because they're old and replaced with more streamlined models. Having a sample of Nara Buddhism only briefly, I like what's there, for what it's worth. Hi Mark and Nathan,

Apologies on the late reply:

Mark: I think the issue for me is not one of difficulty, but flexibility and inclusiveness. My experiences have been rather confining in Pure Land so far, as well as with Western Zen, so yes confining is an apt term.

Nathan Welcome to the JLR. Yes, people do like to play up their own founders as a matter of legitimacy, and due to historiography, we’ve often neglected “classic” Japanese Buddhism in favor of the newer sects simply because they’re old and replaced with more streamlined models. Having a sample of Nara Buddhism only briefly, I like what’s there, for what it’s worth.

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By: Mark http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/#comment-4158 Mark Mon, 31 May 2010 03:47:30 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=7944#comment-4158 I still really appreciate the Buddhism of the Kamakura reformers. As much as I admire the broader approach of Tendai Buddhism (or Chinese or Tibetan Buddhism), it seems like it would be very difficult to do without the guidance of a teacher. Then again, my experience with Kamakura Buddhism is with Nichiren and Zen; neither one really eschews things like keeping the precepts or other broader Mahayana practices (although you almost certainly won't catch a Nichiren Buddhist chanting the Nembutsu); Jodo & Shin Buddhism seem more narrowly focused on "other power." I can see how that might seem confining. I still really appreciate the Buddhism of the Kamakura reformers. As much as I admire the broader approach of Tendai Buddhism (or Chinese or Tibetan Buddhism), it seems like it would be very difficult to do without the guidance of a teacher.

Then again, my experience with Kamakura Buddhism is with Nichiren and Zen; neither one really eschews things like keeping the precepts or other broader Mahayana practices (although you almost certainly won’t catch a Nichiren Buddhist chanting the Nembutsu); Jodo & Shin Buddhism seem more narrowly focused on “other power.” I can see how that might seem confining.

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By: nathan http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2010/05/28/a-refutation-of-japanese-pure-land-buddhism/#comment-4154 nathan Sun, 30 May 2010 01:49:33 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=7944#comment-4154 I seem to be running into a lot of discussions about "exclusiveness" in various Buddhist sects/groups. A recent post I did about Soka Gakkai elicited a few comments that felt overly self assured in their assessment/condemnation of SGI. The point I was trying to make with that post is that there is a element of exclusiveness that floats through us all to some extent, no matter how open our particular "Buddhism" appears to be. Zen communities here in the U.S. pride themselves on being open, supportive, and inclusive, and yet I've heard teachers slam Theravadin teachings and practitioners too many times to belief that we Zennies are free of the exclusivity trap. Another thing to consider is that whenever someone, or a group of someones innovates, as was the case with Dogen, Nichiren, and Honen in 12th and 13th century Japan, there is tendency to see these innovations as better than everything previous. Not always, but pretty often. I don't think this excuses the sometimes blatant refusal to value other paths, but it does point to the motivation to make "legitimate" the new approach. I suppose then it's up to the following generations to decide what to do with the legacy left by the founders. I seem to be running into a lot of discussions about “exclusiveness” in various Buddhist sects/groups. A recent post I did about Soka Gakkai elicited a few comments that felt overly self assured in their assessment/condemnation of SGI. The point I was trying to make with that post is that there is a element of exclusiveness that floats through us all to some extent, no matter how open our particular “Buddhism” appears to be. Zen communities here in the U.S. pride themselves on being open, supportive, and inclusive, and yet I’ve heard teachers slam Theravadin teachings and practitioners too many times to belief that we Zennies are free of the exclusivity trap.

Another thing to consider is that whenever someone, or a group of someones innovates, as was the case with Dogen, Nichiren, and Honen in 12th and 13th century Japan, there is tendency to see these innovations as better than everything previous. Not always, but pretty often. I don’t think this excuses the sometimes blatant refusal to value other paths, but it does point to the motivation to make “legitimate” the new approach. I suppose then it’s up to the following generations to decide what to do with the legacy left by the founders.

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