Comments on: Japanese Language: in-group and out-group http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/01/07/japanese-language-in-group-and-out-group/ My life as a father, Buddhist and Japanophile. Sat, 11 Jun 2011 01:53:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Doug 陀愚 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/01/07/japanese-language-in-group-and-out-group/#comment-5217 Doug 陀愚 Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:20:01 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10118#comment-5217 @JACKIO_63: You are silly. ;) @JACKIO_63: You are silly. ;)

]]> By: Doug 陀愚 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/01/07/japanese-language-in-group-and-out-group/#comment-5216 Doug 陀愚 Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:08:52 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10118#comment-5216 Hi Roger, and welcome to the JLR! I couldn't agree more: it's a tricky balance learning to be polite when you should be, and relax the throttle when around friends. I am still learning both ways myself. :p But one thing I've noticed is that it does depend on the friends. I noticed some friends are pretty casual with me, and some friends whom I've known a long time, are still a bit more formal just due to personality. Takes good listening skills (work in progress for me) and flexibility I guess. :D Hi Roger, and welcome to the JLR!

I couldn’t agree more: it’s a tricky balance learning to be polite when you should be, and relax the throttle when around friends. I am still learning both ways myself. :p

But one thing I’ve noticed is that it does depend on the friends. I noticed some friends are pretty casual with me, and some friends whom I’ve known a long time, are still a bit more formal just due to personality. Takes good listening skills (work in progress for me) and flexibility I guess. :D

]]> By: Roger http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/01/07/japanese-language-in-group-and-out-group/#comment-5214 Roger Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:39:41 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10118#comment-5214 I read this article, and also the comments with great interrest. While it is totally true, that not using polite or respectful language when others expect to do so, can be very embarassing, the opposite is true too. I am not married to a Japanese woman, and so I do not have the sight into family life. But I was very active in boy scouting and this is how I came into contact with quite a few Japanese people, male and female. Many of this friendship last over more than two decades. Although I had other connections to Japan as well, some dating back even into my childhood, it is only a couple of years ago, that I finally took the step to start learning the language. The language that I long time thought of being "impossible" to learn at all. Long story short: I have quite a couple of Japanese friends, mostly 20 years and longer. But its only a roughly 4 years that I started to learn the language. Now obviously I started to try to speak with my friends in Japanese. And yes, I always do so in -masu and -desu style. It is what I learned first. Obviously my friends do not really have a problem with the fact that I use -masu and -desu style a lot, or nowadays fall back often into that style. But one of the most heard comments is, that it sounds so strange for them to not just use plain style, because it gives them an artificial feeling of distance. A distance we do not have anymore when we talk in English. I read this article, and also the comments with great interrest.
While it is totally true, that not using polite or respectful language when others expect to do so, can be very embarassing, the opposite is true too.
I am not married to a Japanese woman, and so I do not have the sight into family life. But I was very active in boy scouting and this is how I came into contact with quite a few Japanese people, male and female. Many of this friendship last over more than two decades. Although I had other connections to Japan as well, some dating back even into my childhood, it is only a couple of years ago, that I finally took the step to start learning the language. The language that I long time thought of being “impossible” to learn at all.
Long story short: I have quite a couple of Japanese friends, mostly 20 years and longer. But its only a roughly 4 years that I started to learn the language.
Now obviously I started to try to speak with my friends in Japanese. And yes, I always do so in -masu and -desu style. It is what I learned first.
Obviously my friends do not really have a problem with the fact that I use -masu and -desu style a lot, or nowadays fall back often into that style. But one of the most heard comments is, that it sounds so strange for them to not just use plain style, because it gives them an artificial feeling of distance. A distance we do not have anymore when we talk in English.

]]> By: JACKIO_63 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/01/07/japanese-language-in-group-and-out-group/#comment-5209 JACKIO_63 Wed, 12 Jan 2011 05:39:32 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10118#comment-5209 Don't be so hard on your self, at least you didn't set of the F' BOMB like you did on your web site...LOL! Don’t be so hard on your self, at least you didn’t set of the F’ BOMB like you did on your web site…LOL!

]]> By: Doug 陀愚 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/01/07/japanese-language-in-group-and-out-group/#comment-5201 Doug 陀愚 Tue, 11 Jan 2011 06:41:46 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10118#comment-5201 Hi Robert! You really said it: Western languages tend to be flat, not stratified (which is neither good nor bad, just different), and things can get complex when dealing with something like Japanese or other such languages. Cultural indirectness is still something I am poor at, but gradually learning I hope. My wife is more direct with me, but maybe only because I am somewhat dense. :) My wife's family is similarly laid-back, though being the in-law, I tend to err on the side of caution anyway since I like them and like to stay in their good-graces. Good point about the use of 家内 vs. 妻. When you look at the kanji, it totally makes sense. :p Hi Robert! You really said it: Western languages tend to be flat, not stratified (which is neither good nor bad, just different), and things can get complex when dealing with something like Japanese or other such languages. Cultural indirectness is still something I am poor at, but gradually learning I hope. My wife is more direct with me, but maybe only because I am somewhat dense. :)

My wife’s family is similarly laid-back, though being the in-law, I tend to err on the side of caution anyway since I like them and like to stay in their good-graces.

Good point about the use of 家内 vs. 妻. When you look at the kanji, it totally makes sense. :p

]]> By: Robert http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/01/07/japanese-language-in-group-and-out-group/#comment-5194 Robert Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:22:00 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10118#comment-5194 I think it's a complex idea to grasp especially for Westerners in a relatively flat rather than stratified society, where you can now be on first name terms with bosses, VIPs etc. I have a book about respect language by P.G. O'Neill which uses complicated diagrams to show relative status and level of speech depending on the situation. Talking about a third party depends on relative status, group, whether they are present or not and who you are speaking to. （＠_＠？）If you factor in cultural indirectness I start to get lost. (for instance my wife never directly asks me to make a cup of tea for her, she will always ask me if I want a cup of tea and expect me to intuit that she wants one) In my Japanese family things seem a bit more relaxed. お　isn't used in お父さん for example, and what surprised me was my wife is called by her first name without さん by my nephews. I think they do the same with me actually. Outside the family certainly my wife has the standard range of plain, polite and respectful speech. I think because I started learning in a classroom and most of my Japanese friends are women my default language is at least neutrally polite and it's plain language I have to think more about. With immigration officials I find it easier to not speak Japanese to them if I can. (on an unrelated note, at Dublin airport recently I was pleasantly surprised that the official greeted my wife with a friendly こんにちは) I remember being told by a teacher that some (many younger?) Japanese women don't like kanai 家内 with its implication of a woman sequestered inside the house and she preferred 妻. I think it’s a complex idea to grasp especially for Westerners in a relatively flat rather than stratified society, where you can now be on first name terms with bosses, VIPs etc.
I have a book about respect language by P.G. O’Neill which uses complicated diagrams to show relative status and level of speech depending on the situation. Talking about a third party depends on relative status, group, whether they are present or not and who you are speaking to. （＠_＠？）If you factor in cultural indirectness I start to get lost. (for instance my wife never directly asks me to make a cup of tea for her, she will always ask me if I want a cup of tea and expect me to intuit that she wants one)

In my Japanese family things seem a bit more relaxed. お　isn’t used in お父さん for example, and what surprised me was my wife is called by her first name without さん by my nephews. I think they do the same with me actually. Outside the family certainly my wife has the standard range of plain, polite and respectful speech.
I think because I started learning in a classroom and most of my Japanese friends are women my default language is at least neutrally polite and it’s plain language I have to think more about.
With immigration officials I find it easier to not speak Japanese to them if I can.
(on an unrelated note, at Dublin airport recently I was pleasantly surprised that the official greeted my wife with a friendly こんにちは)

I remember being told by a teacher that some (many younger?) Japanese women don’t like kanai 家内 with its implication of a woman sequestered inside the house and she preferred 妻.

]]> By: Doug M http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/01/07/japanese-language-in-group-and-out-group/#comment-5179 Doug M Sat, 08 Jan 2011 00:21:45 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10118#comment-5179 Hi guys! <strong>Arun:</strong> Now that you mention, I once studied Thai in college briefly, and remember the subject of pronouns and social hierarchy come up as well. That comment about the "triangulation" is right on the money! <strong>Charles Adamson:</strong> Welcome to the JLR! Yeah, that's a strange case you encountered. I've always used the term <em>tsuma</em> for my wife and on this last trip had no issue trouble with Immigration in that regard. The immigration fellow asked me if I was staying at my wife's parents' house (奥さんのご実家) or something like that, and I stammered back the self-humble form (はい、妻の実家です) and got a smile and that was it. I am not an expert, but I've had some confusion over the word <em>kanai</em> in particular, so maybe that was it. Or, that particular clerk was just, well, different. I've met Japanese who were the exact opposite too: so laid back that it caught even me off guard. Takes all kinds I guess. ;) Hi guys!

Arun: Now that you mention, I once studied Thai in college briefly, and remember the subject of pronouns and social hierarchy come up as well. That comment about the “triangulation” is right on the money!

Charles Adamson: Welcome to the JLR! Yeah, that’s a strange case you encountered. I’ve always used the term tsuma for my wife and on this last trip had no issue trouble with Immigration in that regard. The immigration fellow asked me if I was staying at my wife’s parents’ house (奥さんのご実家) or something like that, and I stammered back the self-humble form (はい、妻の実家です) and got a smile and that was it. I am not an expert, but I’ve had some confusion over the word kanai in particular, so maybe that was it. Or, that particular clerk was just, well, different. I’ve met Japanese who were the exact opposite too: so laid back that it caught even me off guard. Takes all kinds I guess. ;)

]]> By: Charles Adamson http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/01/07/japanese-language-in-group-and-out-group/#comment-5176 Charles Adamson Fri, 07 Jan 2011 23:46:08 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10118#comment-5176 I really good example of how confusing this can be is a time when I was at Japanese Immigration renewing some paperwork. I used the work 'kanai' in reference to my wife and was scolded by the clerk who said I should use 'okusan'. I was really confused because 'kanai' is the word that you normally use when talking about your own wife and 'okusan' is the respectful word you use for someone else's wife. I could not understand why he scolded me, so I asked him what the problem was. He said that I was in an official Japanese government office and I was a 'gaikokujin', a foreigner, so I had to use respectful language in regard to all Japanese, included my wife. To make it even more confusing, most Japanese have told me that they do not agree. I really good example of how confusing this can be is a
time when I was at Japanese Immigration renewing some paperwork. I
used the work ‘kanai’ in reference to my wife and was scolded by
the clerk who said I should use ‘okusan’. I was really confused
because ‘kanai’ is the word that you normally use when talking
about your own wife and ‘okusan’ is the respectful word you use for
someone else’s wife. I could not understand why he scolded me, so I
asked him what the problem was. He said that I was in an official
Japanese government office and I was a ‘gaikokujin’, a foreigner,
so I had to use respectful language in regard to all Japanese,
included my wife. To make it even more confusing, most Japanese
have told me that they do not agree.

]]> By: arunlikhati http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/01/07/japanese-language-in-group-and-out-group/#comment-5174 arunlikhati Fri, 07 Jan 2011 21:39:12 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10118#comment-5174 It’s a similar situation in Vietnamese and Khmer. Aside from the social politics about how to decide what second person term to use, the third person involves a sometimes awkward triangulation between the status of your relationship to the third person with that of the person you’re talking to. On the occasion when friends refer to me in the third person as nó—a term reserved for dear intimates, people of much lower status, animals and objects—I am always caught off guard, if I even realize they’re referring to me. I’d like to think it’s because they reflexively see me as quite dear—but they might just be putting me down offhand. In Khmer, it’s even more complex because common actions have several variants that alternate depending on who is doing the action and what their relationship is to the speaker. As I’ve become more involved in the community, I’ve become painfully aware that the much higher forms of respect—for serious VIPs—are almost completely beyond my vocabulary. It sounds quite complex here, but in practice and with some experience, it usually flows quite effortlessly. When I’m unsure, I usually reflect on certain relationships and episodes in my life, and what terms are exchanged in these contexts. I then tentatively guide my speech accordingly. It’s a similar situation in Vietnamese and Khmer. Aside
from the social politics about how to decide what second person
term to use, the third person involves a sometimes awkward
triangulation between the status of your relationship to the third
person with that of the person you’re talking to. On the occasion
when friends refer to me in the third person as nó—a term reserved
for dear intimates, people of much lower status, animals and
objects—I am always caught off guard, if I even realize they’re
referring to me. I’d like to think it’s because they reflexively
see me as quite dear—but they might just be putting me down
offhand. In Khmer, it’s even more complex because common actions
have several variants that alternate depending on who is doing the
action and what their relationship is to the speaker. As I’ve
become more involved in the community, I’ve become painfully aware
that the much higher forms of respect—for serious VIPs—are almost
completely beyond my vocabulary. It sounds quite complex here, but
in practice and with some experience, it usually flows quite
effortlessly. When I’m unsure, I usually reflect on certain
relationships and episodes in my life, and what terms are exchanged
in these contexts. I then tentatively guide my speech
accordingly.

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