Comments on: Why Memorizing Kanji Doesn’t Always Work http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/02/16/why-memorizing-kanji-doesnt-always-work/ My life as a father, Buddhist and Japanophile. Sat, 11 Jun 2011 01:53:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Doug 陀愚 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/02/16/why-memorizing-kanji-doesnt-always-work/#comment-5729 Doug 陀愚 Fri, 04 Mar 2011 19:47:13 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10493#comment-5729 Hi Kaz and welcome to the JLR! <em>However, reading Japanese is a painfully slow decrypting experience if you haven’t memorized enough kanji....If you don’t memorize the kanji, you will have to do a painful kanji lookup to read anything, such as a newspaper article.</em> That is exactly what people should be doing in my opinion. :) I did the "kanji memorization" track for years and got surprisingly little traction, until I started taking words I encountered first and sort of "reverse-engineered" them, and when seeing other words with related kanji, it got easier to draw associations and guess correctly more often than not. Also in my limited experience, going from compound word -> components (i.e. individual kanji) is a lot easier than component -> compound word. With a compound word, you have something you concretely know, whereas with a given kanji, you only know one piece and still may not know the word. Suffice to say, it's more work upfront, but if you do it enough times, you don't have to consciously think about that word, or even related words because you've see it all before. To be fair, if you're starting completely from scratch, you probably should memorize the first 100-300 kanji or so because they're so commonly used, but as soon as you stop memorizing, you'll rapidly forget what you learned, so the burden is still on reading practice as soon as you can get on your feet. <em>Even educated Japanese people sometimes don’t know how to read some kanji or kanji compound, especially names!</em> Quite so, but they usually know how to read "ebi". ;) P.S. Updated the blog post to clarify a few points mentioned here in the reply. Good feedback, thanks! Hi Kaz and welcome to the JLR!

However, reading Japanese is a painfully slow decrypting experience if you haven’t memorized enough kanji….If you don’t memorize the kanji, you will have to do a painful kanji lookup to read anything, such as a newspaper article.

That is exactly what people should be doing in my opinion. :) I did the “kanji memorization” track for years and got surprisingly little traction, until I started taking words I encountered first and sort of “reverse-engineered” them, and when seeing other words with related kanji, it got easier to draw associations and guess correctly more often than not. Also in my limited experience, going from compound word -> components (i.e. individual kanji) is a lot easier than component -> compound word. With a compound word, you have something you concretely know, whereas with a given kanji, you only know one piece and still may not know the word.

Suffice to say, it’s more work upfront, but if you do it enough times, you don’t have to consciously think about that word, or even related words because you’ve see it all before.

To be fair, if you’re starting completely from scratch, you probably should memorize the first 100-300 kanji or so because they’re so commonly used, but as soon as you stop memorizing, you’ll rapidly forget what you learned, so the burden is still on reading practice as soon as you can get on your feet.

Even educated Japanese people sometimes don’t know how to read some kanji or kanji compound, especially names!

Quite so, but they usually know how to read “ebi”. ;)

P.S. Updated the blog post to clarify a few points mentioned here in the reply. Good feedback, thanks!

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By: Kaz http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/02/16/why-memorizing-kanji-doesnt-always-work/#comment-5728 Kaz Fri, 04 Mar 2011 19:16:02 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10493#comment-5728 This article does not make a point that is entirely valid. It encourages us to practice reading and build vocabulary. However, reading Japanese is a painfully slow decrypting experience if you haven't memorized enough kanji. (Of course, those of us memorizing kanji are doing that with the goal of improving reading, by means of which we get a grip on a wider vocabulary). Sure, there are compounds with special readings, and thus we can't read everything using memorized kanji readings. You just have to know that 美味しい is oishii, for instance. However, that does not amount to discouragement against memorizing the kanji. If you don't memorize the kanji, you will have to do a painful kanji lookup to read anything, such as a newspaper article. If you know the kanji which make up a compound, you can guess at the possible readings, and look it up quickly in a phonetic dictionary based on romaji or kana. To handle the exceptional cases, it helps if you have a grip on the rule-conforming regularities first. Use your memory and take advantage of regularities as much as possible to save time. Even educated Japanese people sometimes don't know how to read some kanji or kanji compound, especially names! (Yet they have spent years in school memorizing kanji). So there is no need to feel discouraged. You can never be perfectly literate in Japanese; it is logically impossible. That's because 1) there is sometimes more than one way to write something, such as a name. If someone is called Tomoko, you don't know which kanji to use to write that without asking and 2) you don't always have the context or knowledge to know how to read something, such as a place name. You have to ask the locals about a name on a sign, etc. This article does not make a point that is entirely valid. It encourages us to practice reading and build vocabulary. However, reading Japanese is a painfully slow decrypting experience if you haven’t memorized enough kanji. (Of course, those of us memorizing kanji are doing that with the goal of improving reading, by means of which we get a grip on a wider vocabulary).

Sure, there are compounds with special readings, and thus we can’t read everything using memorized kanji readings. You just have to know that 美味しい is oishii, for instance. However, that does not amount to discouragement against memorizing the kanji.

If you don’t memorize the kanji, you will have to do a painful kanji lookup to read anything, such as a newspaper article. If you know the kanji which make up a compound, you can guess at the possible readings, and look it up quickly in a phonetic dictionary based on romaji or kana.

To handle the exceptional cases, it helps if you have a grip on the rule-conforming regularities first. Use your memory and take advantage of regularities as much as possible to save time.

Even educated Japanese people sometimes don’t know how to read some kanji or kanji compound, especially names! (Yet they have spent years in school memorizing kanji). So there is no need to feel discouraged.

You can never be perfectly literate in Japanese; it is logically impossible. That’s because 1) there is sometimes more than one way to write something, such as a name. If someone is called Tomoko, you don’t know which kanji to use to write that without asking and 2) you don’t always have the context or knowledge to know how to read something, such as a place name. You have to ask the locals about a name on a sign, etc.

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By: Doug 陀愚 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/02/16/why-memorizing-kanji-doesnt-always-work/#comment-5685 Doug 陀愚 Fri, 25 Feb 2011 23:38:48 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10493#comment-5685 Your Japanese is still probably a lot better than mine. I do a lot of self-study, but haven't lived in Japan, nor do I have much formal training. :-p Welcome to Buddhism, by the way. :) Your Japanese is still probably a lot better than mine. I do a lot of self-study, but haven’t lived in Japan, nor do I have much formal training. :-p

Welcome to Buddhism, by the way. :)

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By: Philippe http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/02/16/why-memorizing-kanji-doesnt-always-work/#comment-5681 Philippe Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:57:23 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10493#comment-5681 Hello Doug, Thanks for your answer. I have learned Japanese three years at university more than ten years ago, but I have forgotten much of it from that time. However, I am new to Buddhism... and a devotee of Kannonsama. Hello Doug,
Thanks for your answer.
I have learned Japanese three years at university more than ten years ago, but I have forgotten much of it from that time.
However, I am new to Buddhism… and a devotee of Kannonsama.

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By: Doug 陀愚 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/02/16/why-memorizing-kanji-doesnt-always-work/#comment-5662 Doug 陀愚 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 05:35:50 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10493#comment-5662 Bienvenue, Phillipe! Always glad to meet another person, especially from Asia, EU and so on. :) I took a look at the Tobira site you suggested, and I am reading through it tonight. Are you new to Japanese studies, or do you have some past experience? It sounds like you are pretty experienced. If so, definitely get some real Japanese manga (in Japanese), and some online TV shows and just keep watching/reading. I bought lots of textbooks, but I don't use them much anymore, because I can enjoy the real thing now (not perfectly). It took about a year, but the effort was worth it. Stay warm and thanks for the great suggestions. :) Bienvenue, Phillipe! Always glad to meet another person, especially from Asia, EU and so on. :)

I took a look at the Tobira site you suggested, and I am reading through it tonight. Are you new to Japanese studies, or do you have some past experience? It sounds like you are pretty experienced. If so, definitely get some real Japanese manga (in Japanese), and some online TV shows and just keep watching/reading. I bought lots of textbooks, but I don’t use them much anymore, because I can enjoy the real thing now (not perfectly). It took about a year, but the effort was worth it.

Stay warm and thanks for the great suggestions. :)

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By: Doug 陀愚 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/02/16/why-memorizing-kanji-doesnt-always-work/#comment-5661 Doug 陀愚 Wed, 23 Feb 2011 05:30:27 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10493#comment-5661 Hi JonJ, I coulnd't agree more. The more I study Japanese, the less I can understand people's fixation on kanji! Even the JLPT puts it as the least important section, because it only comprises such a small component of the language. Indeed, as you point out, Japanese really isn't as hard as they say; I think the typical approach to study is all wrong, and I didn't even realize thus until my wife gave some helpful advice from her experiences learning English. :) Hi JonJ,

I coulnd’t agree more. The more I study Japanese, the less I can understand people’s fixation on kanji! Even the JLPT puts it as the least important section, because it only comprises such a small component of the language.

Indeed, as you point out, Japanese really isn’t as hard as they say; I think the typical approach to study is all wrong, and I didn’t even realize thus until my wife gave some helpful advice from her experiences learning English. :)

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By: JonJ http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/02/16/why-memorizing-kanji-doesnt-always-work/#comment-5642 JonJ Sun, 20 Feb 2011 21:57:59 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10493#comment-5642 Right -- in other words, the approach to learning Japanese should be like the way one learns any language: learn vocabulary (i.e., plain old words), preferably the vocabulary you primarily use (active and passive), and in the process you will of course learn how to read and write the words, unless you want to remain illiterate (which is a state many gaijin, even those living in Japan, used to be content to remain in because they thought the writing system was impossible to learn). Oddly enough, many students of Japanese get so obsessed with learning kanji that that becomes almost their primary task. Right — in other words, the approach to learning Japanese should be like the way one learns any language: learn vocabulary (i.e., plain old words), preferably the vocabulary you primarily use (active and passive), and in the process you will of course learn how to read and write the words, unless you want to remain illiterate (which is a state many gaijin, even those living in Japan, used to be content to remain in because they thought the writing system was impossible to learn).

Oddly enough, many students of Japanese get so obsessed with learning kanji that that becomes almost their primary task.

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By: Philippe http://japanlifeandreligion.com/2011/02/16/why-memorizing-kanji-doesnt-always-work/#comment-5633 Philippe Fri, 18 Feb 2011 20:59:22 +0000 http://japanlifeandreligion.com/?p=10493#comment-5633 Hello Doug, As you are learning Japanese for JLPT Level 2, perhaps you will be interested in the Manual exposed on this site : http://tobira.9640.jp/xoops/ (please click on the left picture to look at contents) This book is accompanied by lots of online free materials. Each chapter deals with a cultural topic. The book can be found easily (I've bought it at Parco). If you have a look at it, tell me what you think of it. Greetings from cold Paris. Philippe. Hello Doug,
As you are learning Japanese for JLPT Level 2, perhaps you will be interested in the Manual exposed on this site : http://tobira.9640.jp/xoops/
(please click on the left picture to look at contents)
This book is accompanied by lots of online free materials.
Each chapter deals with a cultural topic.

The book can be found easily (I’ve bought it at Parco).

If you have a look at it, tell me what you think of it.

Greetings from cold Paris.
Philippe.

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